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New helmet policy angers firefighters

A new city policy requires firefighters to trade in their helmets after 10 years for an upgrade or pay $100 to keep the old one

By Sally Goldenberg and Kevin Sheehan
The New York Post

NEW YORK — Firefighters are blazing mad over a new requirement that they turn in their beloved helmets after 10 years as the FDNY upgrades the equipment — or pay $100 to keep the mementos.

The Bravest tore into the new city policy, which requires they get new helmets once a decade for safety reasons.

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Full story: New helmet policy angers firefighters




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Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:04:13 PM A complete sham. This is an absurd mandate conjured up by the NFPA and is not centered around safety. This mandate has gear being replaced regardless of condition. There are departments out there struggling to keep firefighters on engines and they may have to choose between layoffs or gear replacement as a result. Where did the arbitrary ten year mark come from? Which safety equipment companies advocated for this mandate. Who wins here, the PPE manufacturers do. I wonder what Cairns thinks when they promote "Leather Forever" Hopefully NFPA reverses this insane mandate in the next revision. This is about profit, not safety. Just using the FDNY example with roughly 11,000 firefighters. How many millions of dollars will be spent each ten years. Sickening in these financial times.
Jan Morris Rickard Jan Morris Rickard Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:28:43 PM I believe the equipment should be changed out but if they are just going to discard the helmets--the firefighter should be able to keep it--provided that he does not use it in fires. Charging them for it is ridiculous. They give the families of deceased officers their helmets. Police officers have the same problem with protective vests except they are NOT required to change them out by the change out date. So I think the mandate is good.
Joe Troup Joe Troup Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:47:10 PM OSHA requires hard hats to be replaced after 10 years so the safety aspect makes sense. But having to pay $100 to keep something that has that much sentimental value is absurd, they're just going to throw them out if the guys don't buy them. I understand that you can't leave them around the fire house though, make them free as long as they are removed from the house
Tom Kelly Tom Kelly Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:53:26 PM wtf?
Jay Patterson Jay Patterson Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:07:44 PM Its a valid safety issue. Equipment degrades with use and age. I agree with the replacement, but, fire helmets have a tremendous amount of meaning to the firefighters who wear them. To demand payment for what is essentially unusable junk after decommissioning is heartless. Its particularly heartless in light of those who served at ground zero on 9-11 and what that helmet means to them as they wore it while searching for survivors and fallen brothers.
Ron Leal Ron Leal Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:15:09 PM Short and simple pay a 100 bucks for something that is going to the LANDFILL come on New York have a little respect for your Firefighters.
Nancy Anderson Nancy Anderson Wednesday, October 17, 2012 5:45:19 PM WOW! I had no idea New York was so hard up for money and had so many over-paid Fire Fighters that they felt the need to charge them for a piece of the history of their lives. You wonder who comes up with these stupid ideas and can only hope the voters are paying CLOSE ATTENTION!
Jerry Montgomery Jerry Montgomery Wednesday, October 17, 2012 7:35:47 PM It's a legitimate safety issue... but a dumbass, heartless and insensitive way to dispose of the old helmets.
Kelly Spongberg Kelly Spongberg Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:44:25 PM I think some helmets will go missing at the next scene...
Garry VanderBaaren Garry VanderBaaren Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:30:28 PM I agree with firemen. If the helmets are unsafe, change them. However, this is just a policy that says change every ten years
Garry VanderBaaren Garry VanderBaaren Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:08:42 PM And then they let you keep helmet if you pay? Can they still use it? Why not just replace gear when unsafe. Can not s fireman who depends on it for his life decide when to replace it.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:24:31 PM Just how many helmet failures have happened in the last 50 years to warrant this type of arbitrary standard. Is there any documented evidence to prove thier clain that ALL PPE is no good 10 years and 1 day after it is made. Where is the safety concern? Well cared for leather lasts a lifetime and NFPA committee members who have never worn a fire helmet should not set this standard. Especially since many of them in all likely hood work for the PPE manufacturers who want to sell you thier stuff. This is a result of PPE manufacturers getting in bed with the NFPA. Sad but true. I will take an NRA quote to finish this. "Out of my cold dead hands" will they take my leather helmet.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:29:03 PM Where is the evidence that 10 years and one day we are unsafe. This is a financial issue for PPE manufacturers in tough economic times. The money spen putting advocates on these committees is well worth the reward. Now we will all be checking helmet labels and buying helmets (arbitrarily) to conform. I have a better idea, demand a study to prove the point. I subscribe to the "leather forever" model, because it is.
Jerry Montgomery Jerry Montgomery Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:34:49 PM I agree with you. the claim of 'safety' really needs to be documented...not just for helmets for for all other PPE (turnouts are expensive and last longer than 5 years too).
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:39:42 PM This standard should be based on inspections and usage. Not some made up date. Hopefully the next revision backs away from this. Cool heads need to prevail.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:01:32 AM Joe, can you post the actual OSHA law requiring the "hard hats " replacement happen at ten years. I would argue that a fire helmet does not fall in the same category. A hard hat worn by highway workers (because the sky might fall) and a fire helmet worn by a fireman are completely different. They need different standards, and those standards should be based on actual data from years of documented evidence of helmet degradation. Oh, they don't have that, well then super sorry NFPA. You can stick it. Why not put actual firefighters from busy urban fire departments on these committees? Answer, it will cost the PPE manufacturers money and influence. Who is actually working for who here. LEATHER FOREVER (because it is)
Robert M. Barron II Robert M. Barron II Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:21:48 AM This requirement by NFPA is a sham. Is there gear out there that needs to be replaced at 10 years? Yes but not all of it. Some gear needs to be replaced earlier than 10 years because of the use it receives. Though I am not completely sure but I do not think the NFPA standard applied to the helmet but I could be wrong. I know departments that are spending huge sums of taxpayers dollars to be in compliance with NFPA 1851 but the gear is perfrectly fine. I know guys that have to send in their gear every year for the annual cleaning but the gear has nto seen a fire since the last cleaning and some cases the gear is still in the plastic bag from when it was cleaned the year prior. Many NFPA standards are being driven by manufacturers and not the fire service. It needs to change. We need to bring common sense back. As a firefighter I think is is crazy and as a taxpayer I can not afford it.
Michael Tremblay Michael Tremblay Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:30:25 AM It's a legitimate safety issue. Some guys helmets get cooked and could be a hazard. Where FDNY management f'ed up is in having the guys buy their old buckets. They're going to condemn the damn things - mark them and let the guys keep them!
Stephen Sharp Stephen Sharp Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:41:45 AM They are submitting similar measures for fire hose replacment @ 10 years. Suprisingly though, it didnt come from a mfg, but a hose testing vendor. Most people dont know who sits on the various commitees, but yes mfg's do sit on the committees and thats usually where "timing out" comes from. Imagine that.....
Jay Patterson Jay Patterson Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:53:34 AM Exposure to heat and products of combustion over time are inherently destructive. Leather, but also plastic is porous, and both absorb the dangerous chemicals in the environment they are used in over time. While I am not armed with statistics, common sense tells me its a good idea. Your mileage may vary.
Jay Patterson Jay Patterson Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:03:46 AM While not exhaustive, here is a study on abrasive effects on outer shell and degradation of protection (http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1308&context=gradschool_theses) I am sure if you dug deeper you could find other such studies or parallel ones from industrial environments. I think the concept of "well cared for leather lasts a lifetime" is an oxymoron. Well cared for in the fire service? Its well cared for before and after the call. During the call its punished with heat, smoke, chemicals, abrasion, physical shock and normal usage wear. Its PPE!!
Jon Fernando Jon Fernando Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:12:36 AM they should be allows to keep their helmet as a memento bit should not be used on the line. Its your actions that show your experience and not how best up your gear is, that's a safety issue...
Jon Fernando Jon Fernando Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:13:20 AM Wow...auto correct fail!
Lauren Dearman Lauren Dearman Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:14:06 AM that is what i was thinking... !
Richard 'Moose' Genthner Richard 'Moose' Genthner Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:16:53 AM I totally agree, they should be free of charge to any fire fighter in any department. Thats how we know who has been in the heat is how black and curled the leather is. Jesus FDNY dont be so dam cheap.
Richard 'Moose' Genthner Richard 'Moose' Genthner Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:18:13 AM I totally agree, they should be free of charge to any fire fighter in any department. That's how we know who has been in the heat is how black and curled the leather is. Jesus FDNY don't be so dam cheap.
Jon Fernando Jon Fernando Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:40:18 AM This is not a sham. The sham is the FDNY wanting money for the old helmets. Let them keep them at no charge, they need to be replaced anyway and the FDNY is picking up the tab. God forbid someone gets hurt with damaged gear, OSHA will rain down on the department and you might end up loosing benefits...then, when those are lost, that injured person or the family of an LODD will sue the crap out of the department for nothing following NFPA....
Jon Fernando Jon Fernando Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:42:43 AM Kevin, what you fail to see is the what if. Just because it hasn't happend doesn't mean it never will. and guess what, NFPA, fire code, all that governmental mumbo jumbo a lot of people think is stupid, will change...when someone gets hurt or LODD...
Phyllis Hoogerhyde Phyllis Hoogerhyde Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:02:28 AM I understand the safety reasons, but let them keep their helmet! This is Atrocious! these men and women deserve more respect than that!
Lori Dunham Williams Lori Dunham Williams Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:15:15 AM What we do here is pro-rate the cost. Firefighters pay 1/10th of the cost (17.50)to keep their helmets for their personal collection. It's quite reasonable and it helps to offset the cost of a new helmet.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:18:11 AM Jay Patterson There is simply no evidence to support the arbitrary 10 year date for helmets. Read up on how the NFPA 1851 committee came up with this standard. Kind of how safe we were all to become with milees of reflective striping on our gear. Well evidence is showing that the plastic on out turnouts is contributing to injuries. Wait and see, I predict that the amount and where it is will dramatically chance. Why, there is evidence to support the change. Bottom line, this should not be regulated through another arbitrary rule. BTW I do not see my statement of "well cared for leather lasts a lifetime" as an oxymoron as you state. Have you ever owned a leather lid? If you follow the care and maintenance procedures (clean, condition, paint). It can in fact last a lifetime. Leather forever!
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:27:55 AM Jon Fernando So if it hasn't happened we are supposed to look into a crystal ball and arbitrarily make up standards. That sounds dangerous to me. I would like to know first of all who is on the 1851 committee, what are their motivations, and what evidence do they have to show that there is any significant compromise to the helmets after 10 years and 1 day. How about they put in place inspection guidelines, and if the gear (according to trained individuals in each respective department) does not pass it is then retired. Oh yeah that does exist, lets use it rather than make new rules to save us from ourselves. I believe this is not about our safety, and more about financial gains for PPE manufacturers. Now keeping with the real topic, if they do remove the helmets, just give it to the guys. That is the right thing to do.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:30:11 AM Amen. Leather Forever!
Michael Seneco Michael Seneco Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:39:58 AM It's not like FDNY can turn around and use the helmets somewhere else in the department. They are probably going to see them to some 3rd world FD or on EBay... The members should be able to keep their helmets.. This sort of BS is exactly what is eroding the culture and commitment of the fire service...
Jon Fernando Jon Fernando Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:42:48 AM I think that thinking of this as a money making scheme as somewhat jaded.... The issue here is that "modern" helmets are more plastic now then leather, which means they are more susceptible to heat damage. They probably don't think about the leather anymore because they are expensive compared to plastics. You mention care and cleaning. Then we are assuming that FFs actually TAKE CARE of the helmet and not just throw it on the gear rack or back of their truck. I think its sad that people are so proud that their helmet is all shitted up. I think this is foolish. I am not saying I disagree with you, you do have valid points, I'm just point out what I see and what my belief of the issue is. Let the guys keep their helmets but if they need new ones, give it to them...
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:43:18 AM Sorry, your right, it's not just a sham, it is a Total sham. You are no more safe at ten years and one day than at nine years and 364. It is about the actual condition of each piece of equipment. This should be left to departments to make these decisions using trained firefighters to inspect, care for, and replace helmets as necessary. A bunch of PPE manufacturers who have an interest in selling you more of the latest wiz bang tool or gear should not be allowed to influence these standards. They should provide data only and the professionals in our trade should evaluate it in conjunction with other criteria to make logical and meaningful standards.
Joe Troup Joe Troup Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:40:52 AM I don't know where to find the actual OSHA law but I know the company I used to work for was fined for employees having hard hats over 10 years old on a job site so we then went through all of them and checked them. We did commercial HVAC work, not highway work, I will agree that a hard hat isn't gonna save you from a falling sky though.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:56:58 AM I'll bet that the 10 year replacement requirement for helmets gets revised. Please read from NFPA news. NFPA 1851-Proposed 2008. Standard on Selection, Care, and Maintenance of Protective Ensembles for Structural Fire Fighting and Proximity Fire Fighting. TIA Log No.: 883. Reference: 10.1.2 and A.10.1.2. Comment Closing Date: September 7, 2007. Submitter: Chief Allen S. Hay, Fire Department of City of New York, Brooklyn, NY. 1. Revise 10.1.2 and A.10.1.2 to read as follows: 10.1.2* Structural fire fighting ensembles and ensemble elements, with the exception of protective helmets, shall be retired in accordance with 10.2.1 no more than 10 years from the date the ensembles or ensemble elements were manufactured. A.10.1.2 In discussing the concept of mandatory retirement for protective elements, the consensus of the technical committee, led by the fire service segment, is that the life of a turnout ensemble is generally less than 10 years. This observation uniquely, however, does not apply specifically to helmets when they are properly cared for and maintained. Regardless of when the element was originally produced, it is imperative that the protective elements be routinely inspected in order to assure that they are clean, well maintained, and still safe. Submitter’s Substantiation: The justification provided for mandatory retirement of all protective elements is stated in the associated annex item as based on the fire service belief “that the life of a turnout suit is generally less than 10 years.” This approach does not discuss fire service observation about the life of a protective helmet. Our experience at the Fire Department of New York has shown that helmets continue to last many years past the 10-year life. Helmets continue to provide an acceptable level of protection for well in excess of 10 years, per recent testing at our supplier’s lab. This is especially true when interior suspensions are updated. We have numerous helmets that have demonstrated service lives that show the helmets continue to perform adequately without any safety or health issues. For the period of July 2004 thru June 2005, only 114 helmets out of almost 12,000 in service were replaced. For 2005/2006, 69 helmets were replaced, and for 2006/2007, 90 helmets have been replaced. These helmets do not wear out; the majority of these are replaced because they developed a crack after being dropped, or they have tar or some other substance on them that cannot be removed. Approximately 50% of those helmets that were replaced were over 10 years of age. Emergency Nature: Requiring the mandatory, premature retirement of protective helmets that are still adequately providing protection places an undue burden on fire departments for maintaining appropriate inventories of protective elements for its members. It vastly complicates compliance to the now mandatory 10 year life of ALL ensemble elements that is wise for all elements save helmets, by requiring replacement of the helmet that characteristically provides service over a much longer period. In effect, fire departments must decide whether to not fully comply with the ten year retirement period, or to throw away product that testing has proven to be still serviceable. The committee erred in not separately taking into consideration the longer potential service life of helmets as shown by our fire service experience and instead based their requirements for mandatory retirement solely on other ensemble items such protective garments, gloves, boots, etc.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:58:52 AM This proposal was submitted after last revision and is on the table. Stand by!
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:00:26 AM Joe, see below
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:02:18 AM Jay, see proposal above to make helmets exempt from the 10 year standard. I'll betcha a beer it gets reversed next time a revision is done.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:28:23 AM Robert, see the NFPA comments I posted above. I think this will go away at some point.
Wheeling WV Fire Department Station 5- Wheeling Island Wheeling WV Fire Department Station 5- Wheeling Island Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:28:24 AM You can have helmet when you pry it from my dead hands.....
Steve Heckman Steve Heckman Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:31:00 PM I strongly believe that FDNY should allow firefighter to keep their helmets; they are a badge of honor! As for the Standard, many blame the NFPA but believe it or not the NFPA only manages, organizes and publishes the standard; similar to ASHRAE & ASME. The 1851 Technical Correlating Committee is responsible for the standards content. That committee is made up of equal interest groups; Yes...Manufactures, but also users (Firefighters), AHJ's (Fire Chiefs), Special experts etc. The NFPA oversees this so that no one group can have a majority interest or vote. The committee receives input from many different sources, meets regularly and votes on changes based on research, studies, test results and the pro's and con's of the matter being discussed. As a member of the NFPA and one who is a member of a different standards committee; believe me there is no one-time vote per item! It is reviewed, commented on voted on, reviewed again, commented on, voted on. This goes on for the entire revision cycle of the standard which usually 3 to 5 years. So when a standard is published please remember this. If you want to change it apply to be a member of a committee and yes, its all-volunteer...no one is paid!
Don Ashmall Don Ashmall Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:12:24 PM There may or may not be valid arguments about a time limit for equipment. But if the equipment is no longer effective, and if it's existing policy for the department to decide what kind of new equipment gets bought and when to tell the firefighters to stop using the old equipment: what is this nonsense about making the firefighters pay to take the old equipment home? If the stuff is so bad, shouldn't it be discarded anyway? And if it's a discard, why should a firefighter have to pay for it? This is not a safety issue; it's a way to bleed firefighters at $100 a pop every ten years.
Rik Hall Rik Hall Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:25:59 PM ...and the CITY will turn around a sell them to FIRE BUFFS every where and make money off them! Tell'um you LOST IT! (It's like telling a THIEF You ant got any money)!
J.w. Allen J.w. Allen Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:58:54 PM that is RIDICULOUS!
Matt Hinkle Matt Hinkle Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:50:03 PM I guarantee some of those leather heads are keeping their lids and wearing them even if they are over 10 years old...
Chajka C Kevin Chajka C Kevin Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:23:38 PM I'd be pissed too.
James Rasmussen James Rasmussen Saturday, October 20, 2012 5:32:46 PM A helment and shield is a fireman badge of Honor....let them keep them to pass on to their children and family...Honor is earned, not brought and sold to the highest bidder.
David Goodwin David Goodwin Saturday, October 20, 2012 9:13:12 PM If the FF's were issued the previous helmets, they have no claim to them; they are the property of the Department.
David Goodwin David Goodwin Saturday, October 20, 2012 9:18:30 PM Come on, Kevin and Jon. Safety is of utmost importance. And yes, the resins in the helmet do in fact lose their original properties over time and with use. Also, we are talking tax dollars here, that come from the community. The city is obligated to spend wisely and recoup what they can. I have been a Fire Safety officer for over twenty years and your arguments are simply childish.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Sunday, October 21, 2012 4:46:53 AM David Come on, proof? studies?data? This will in all likely hood change in next revision to focus on the intent which was turnout gear. The 1851 "standard" that arbitrarily makes all equipment unsafe at 10 years is rubbish, and this type of shotgun approach has nothing to do with safety. BTW when you speak of these resins, perhaps NFPA should ban all composit helmets and require leather because as you seem to think resins are unsafe. Oh, I'm sure you'll now come up with some BS about how Leather absorbs the toxins and what about Haz Mat blah, blah, blah. Cairns N6A 100% hand made leather, no resins, no composits, NFPA approved, OSHA approved. Just saying. If you want safety, there is nothing better. 250 + years and still can't be beat. LEATHER FOREVER. Please read comments below that I posted from NFPA news on the subject regarding the 10 year requirement for retirement of helmets. The evidence, yes from firefighters in the field, shows otherwise based on observations from actual use. Or instead you can just resort to name calling, I've heard much worse around the coffee table.
Troy L Linger Troy L Linger Sunday, October 21, 2012 6:05:24 AM They are giving them new ones why not let them have the old. The city will most likely auction them off.
Ken Laughlin Ken Laughlin Sunday, October 21, 2012 2:44:10 PM Our department had helmets (top of the line brand) that were cleaned according to recommended directions as the Chief was somewhat of a neat freak. Shortly thereafter we had a training fire which wasn't particularly that hot and there was no flame inpingement but the surface bulged out like a balloon. All had to be taken out of service. They were 3 years old at the most. Leather is porous and heavier. Sorry but I think you lose on this one. I have been a FF for 42 years and have seen my share of fires and been in a flashover and was very glad that my equipment was up to par. Give them the helmets. If they are out of service thay are out of service.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Sunday, October 21, 2012 4:17:51 PM Ken Was it leather? Was it Cairns? They have guarantees from defects for the life of the helmet. If you had composite, well there you have it, substandard quality. Leather Forever. Leather is not porous when they come from the factory, and they need care to maintain the protective qualities. Heavier, hahahahhahahaahah, you are and have been a FIREFIGHTER for God's sake for 42 years doing one of the most physically tasking jobs on the planet and you have a problem with a little extra weight on the noggin. I find it laughable when fellow firefighters complain of a few extra ounces on their head , but you look in their pockets and they have every gadget under the sun that they will never use. As for the last comment, if they are out of service, they are out of service, I could not agree more. The criteria needs to be done on a case by case basis, based on use and condition. Not an arbitrary date. You proved my point better than I could. 10 years is no guarantee of safety. That manufacturer should investigate the circumstances and if there is a problem, perhaps you should change brands. There are plenty of helmet companies out there making a product at the bare bone minimums to make a buck. Based on your anecdotal isolated case we should get a new helmet every two years, because on the third it could become unsafe. I'll bet there was more to your story, there always is. Not trying to win or lose any argument, I just want to have some common sense put back into the fire service. We are putting ourselves right out of a job with arbitrary costly standards, with no basis in fact, or documented evidence.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:04:24 PM David, you know what I find so sad about your statement saying that "they have no claim" is your lack of understanding of what each and every fire helmet means to the individual. How many were wearing that helmet when they pulled a child from a car wreck, made the hallway and found grandma still clinging to life, or took some debris from the brothers above while they were taking a beating and thinking, that was the best piece of sheet rock to ever hit me. Point is, this is our connection to each other, this binds us like no other. Only we understand the brotherhood that it represents. Before you take a bean counter position, do some research, learn some history of the fire service. The traditional leather fire helmet is our most recognized symbol of who we are, what we stand for, and why we exist. All the way back to our founding fathers. Take some time to learn what the symbols on the brim actually mean before you say these helmets are property of any City. Quite the contrary, we are given these helmets by our Cities and entrusted to carry out our sacred vow and beyond the safety that they provide, they represent the few humans who actually can do this job, and take the oath to lay down their lives for another fellow human if necessary. No questions asked. When I listen to folks like you claiming that the City or District actually owns the helmet (which they cannot re-issue, and must destroy) I think of the 30-06 GOVT (model # 85111) rifle that I have in my safe that belonged to my Grandfather in WWII. Why do I have this rifle, because the service men who led the charge to defeat Hitler were allowed to return with them. This is no different than passing down the helmet to ones children, so that they can remember what daddy, or mommy , or grandpa did. So the next time you are out doing your fire safety consulting while you are not being a chef, think about those out there for the last 250 years putting it all out there for those who can't. We value history, tradition, and the brotherhood. Not the bottom line! Please feel free to add that to your safety consultation check list. Leather Forever.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:29:41 PM BTW, I just reread your post. Are you actually are gonna state that you were in a flashover. Hahahahahahaahah, I guess you were less than 5 feet from the door to get out because that my friend is not survivable. I don't care what turnout or helmet you were wearing. Please back off that statement, cause your gonna get eaten alive on this one bro. Sorry, all credibility lost. Your story around the coffee table has grown from I once saw a room flash from outside to I was in it. Please, if you are gonna engage in this type of conversation, keep it real because any fireman worth his salt can see BS a mile away. That is what we are trained to do, that is what we do around the coffee table each duty day and that is what we do at each call, because people lie. Tell your war stories to family and buddies, keep it away from the firefighters here who have learned a few things since the 80's about the fires we respond to.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:35:46 PM Yup, Leather Forever Brother
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Monday, October 22, 2012 12:51:13 AM So take this back to committee. Fix 1851 to reflect it's true intent, and that is turnouts, not helmets. This was a huge overreach of NFPA and needs to be addressed.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Monday, October 22, 2012 1:00:18 AM Fire and Emergency Services Protective Clothing and Equipment (FAE-AAC) Technical Correlating Committee Members David Trebisacci William E. Haskell, III E 10/6/2000 ChairFAE-AAC National Institute for Occupational Safety & Health 8 Ivanhoe Lane Andover, MA 01810 USA Jason L. Allen RT 9/30/2004 PrincipalFAE-AAC Intertek Testing Services 3933 US Route 11 Cortland, NY 13045-9715 USA Intertek Testing Services Alternate: Pamela A. Kavalesky Steven D. Corrado RT 1/15/2004 PrincipalFAE-AAC UL LLC 12 Laboratory Drive PO Box 13995 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709-3995 USA Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Alternate: Robin B. Royster Richard M. Duffy L 1/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC International Association of Fire Fighters 1750 New York Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20006 USA International Association of Fire Fighters Robert A. Freese M 10/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC Globe Manufacturing Company 37 Loudon Road PO Box 128 Pittsfield, NH 03263-0128 USA Alternate: Patricia A. Freeman David V. Haston E 3/4/2008 PrincipalFAE-AAC US Department of Agriculture Technology & Development Center 444 East Bonita Avenue San Dimas, CA 91773 USA Alternate: Anthony Petrilli Thomas M. Hosea RT 8/9/2012 PrincipalFAE-AAC US Department of the Navy 110 Vernon Avenue, Code E14 Panama City, FL 32407 USA Alternate: Brandi L. Chestang David G. Matthews SE 10/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC Fire & Industrial (P.P.E) Ltd. Rose Farm, Chapel Road Necton Norfolk PE37 8JA United Kingdom International Standards Organization Gary L. Neilson U 3/21/2006 PrincipalFAE-AAC 40 Martell Place Sparks, NV 89441 USA NFPA Fire Service Section Jack E. Reall L 8/9/2012 PrincipalFAE-AAC Columbus (OH) Division of Fire 379 West Broad Street Columbus, OH 43215 USA Columbus Firefighters Union William A. Van Lent M 3/2/2010 PrincipalFAE-AAC Veridian Ltd., Inc. 3710 West Milwaukee Street Spencer, IA 51301 USA Fire & Emergency Manufacturers & Services Association Alternate: Louis Carpentier Harry P. Winer SE 8/9/2012 PrincipalFAE-AAC HIP Consulting LLC PO Box 344 Ashland, MA 01721 USA Louis Carpentier M 3/2/2010 AlternateFAE-AAC Innotex Inc. 275, Gouin Street Richmond, QC J0B 2H0 Canada Fire & Emergency Manufacturers & Services Association Principal: William A. Van Lent Patricia A. Freeman M 1/1/1996 AlternateFAE-AAC Globe Manufacturing Company, LLC 37 Loudon Road Pittsfield, NH 03263 USA Principal: Robert A. Freese Karen E. Lehtonen M 7/26/2007 AlternateFAE-AAC Lion 7200 Poe Avenue, Suite 400 Dayton, OH 45414 USA Principal: Nicholas J. Curtis Robin B. Royster RT 10/28/2008 AlternateFAE-AAC UL LLC 12 Laboratory Drive PO Box 13995 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709-3995 USA Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Principal: Steven D. Corrado Stephen R. Sanders RT 4/5/2001 AlternateFAE-AAC Safety Equipment Institute (SEI) 1307 Dolley Madison Blvd., Suite 3A McLean, VA 22101 USA Principal: Patricia A. Gleason Donald B. Thompson SE 3/15/2007 AlternateFAE-AAC North Carolina State University Textile Protection & Comfort Center 2401 Research Drive, Box 8301, NCSU Raleigh, NC 27695-8301 USA Principal: Roger L. Barker Robert J. Athanas U 8/9/2012 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC FDNY/SAFE-IR, Incorporated 110 Jefferson Road Montgomery, NY 12549 USA TC on Electronic Safety Equipment Dean W. Cox U 1/14/2005 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC Fairfax County Fire & Rescue Department 11404 Chivalry Chase Lane Spotsylvania, VA 22551 USA TC on Special Operations PC&E Daniel N. Rossos U 3/15/2007 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC Portland Fire & Rescue 40640 SE George Road Estacada, OR 97023 USA TC on Respiratory Protection Equipment David G. Trebisacci 1/19/2011 Staff LiaisonFAE-AAC National Fire Protection Association 1 Batterymarch Park Quincy, MA 02169-7471 USA Eric J. Beck M 9/30/2004 SecretaryFAE-AAC Mine Safety Appliances Company 1000 Cranberry Woods Drive Cranberry Township, PA 16606 USA Compressed Gas Association Alternate: Michael T. Rupert Roger L. Barker SE 1/15/2004 PrincipalFAE-AAC North Carolina State University 2401 Research Drive, Box 8301 Raleigh, NC 27695-8301 USA Alternate: Donald B. Thompson Nicholas J. Curtis M 7/1/1995 PrincipalFAE-AAC Lion Apparel, Inc. 7200 Poe Avenue, Suite 400 Dayton, OH 45414 USA Alternate: Karen E. Lehtonen Cristine Z. Fargo M 10/27/2009 PrincipalFAE-AAC International Safety Equipment Association 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 808 Arliington, VA 22209 USA International Safety Equipment Association Patricia A. Gleason RT 7/1/1995 PrincipalFAE-AAC Safety Equipment Institute (SEI) 1307 Dolley Madison Blvd., Suite 3A McLean, VA 22101 USA Alternate: Stephen R. Sanders Kimberly M. Henry M 10/23/2003 PrincipalFAE-AAC PBI Performance Products, Inc. 9800D Southern Pine Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28273 USA Alternate: Richard H. Young James S. Johnson RT 10/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory 7867 Cypress Creek Court Pleasanton, CA 94588 USA Michael F. McKenna SE 10/18/2011 PrincipalFAE-AAC Michael McKenna & Associates, LLC 8511 St. Germaine Court Roseville, CA 95747 USA Anthony D. Putorti, Jr. RT 8/9/2011 PrincipalFAE-AAC National Institute of Standards & Technology 100 Bureau Drive, MS-8661 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8661 USA Jeffrey O. Stull M 1/1/1995 PrincipalFAE-AAC International Personnel Protection, Inc. PO Box 92493 Austin, TX 78709-2493 USA Alternate: Grace G. Stull Bruce H. Varner M 1/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC 14175 W. Indian School, Suite B4-419 Goodyear, AZ 85395 USA International Fire Service Training Association Chris Bain C 11/2/2006 Voting AlternateFAE-AAC Oklahoma State Firefighters Association 2716 NE 50th Street Oklahoma City, OK 73111 USA Oklahoma State Firefighters Association Voting Alt. to OSFA Rep. Brandi L. Chestang RT 10/20/2010 AlternateFAE-AAC US Department of the Navy 101 Vernon Avenue, Bldg. 603, Code E-14 Panama City, FL 32405 USA Principal: Thomas M. Hosea Pamela A. Kavalesky RT 10/28/2008 AlternateFAE-AAC Intertek Testing Services 3933 US Route 11 Cortland, NY 13045-9717 USA Intertek Testing Services Principal: Jason L. Allen Anthony Petrilli E 8/9/2012 AlternateFAE-AAC US Department of Agriculture Technology & Development Center 5785 West Broadway Missoula, MT 59808 USA Principal: David V. Haston Michael T. Rupert M 10/27/2009 AlternateFAE-AAC Mine Safety Appliances Company 1100 Cranberry Woods Drive Cranberry Twp, PA 16066-5208 USA Compressed Gas Association Principal: Eric J. Beck Grace G. Stull M 10/28/2008 AlternateFAE-AAC International Personnel Protection, Inc. PO Box 92493 Austin, TX 78709-2493 USA Principal: Jeffrey O. Stull Richard H. Young M 10/27/2009 AlternateFAE-AAC DuPont Protection Technologies 5401 Jefferson Davis Highway Richmond, VA 23234 USA Principal: Kimberly M. Henry Christina M. Baxter E 10/20/2010 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC US Department of Defense 4800 Mark Center Arlington, VA 22350-2600 USA TC on Hazardous Materials PC&E Stephen J. King SE 7/28/2006 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC 37 Lucinda Drive Babylon, NY 11702-3703 USA TC on Structural and Proximity Fire Fighting PC&E Rick L. Swan L 11/14/2006 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC IAFF Local 2881/CDF Fire Fighters 350 Eric Lane Templeton, CA 93465 USA TC on Wildland Fire Fighting PC&E
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Monday, October 22, 2012 1:01:30 AM So hee it is boys, the 1851 voting committee. How many active professional firefighters do you see. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Monday, October 22, 2012 1:02:52 AM Sorry bro, just found the 1851 volunteer technical committee. Look at the principal players.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Monday, October 22, 2012 1:10:58 AM David Goodwin Hey, did you see my post below showing all the principal players in the 1851 technical committee. Childish you say, safety you say. Look at the list. How many FIREMEN are on that list. Sorry Davey boy, this is a TOTAL AND COMPLETE F$#KING SHAM. Sorry to take the childish side out and spell out for all you chef/safety consultants out there.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Monday, October 22, 2012 1:33:38 AM Never mind Davey boy, I'll just post it here so you can get back to chasing firefighters without gloves and goggles. Fire and Emergency Services Protective Clothing and Equipment (FAE-AAC) Technical Correlating Committee Members David Trebisacci William E. Haskell, III E 10/6/2000 ChairFAE-AAC National Institute for Occupational Safety & Health 8 Ivanhoe Lane Andover, MA 01810 USA Jason L. Allen RT 9/30/2004 PrincipalFAE-AAC Intertek Testing Services 3933 US Route 11 Cortland, NY 13045-9715 USA Intertek Testing Services Alternate: Pamela A. Kavalesky Steven D. Corrado RT 1/15/2004 PrincipalFAE-AAC UL LLC 12 Laboratory Drive PO Box 13995 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709-3995 USA Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Alternate: Robin B. Royster Richard M. Duffy L 1/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC International Association of Fire Fighters 1750 New York Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20006 USA International Association of Fire Fighters Robert A. Freese M 10/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC Globe Manufacturing Company 37 Loudon Road PO Box 128 Pittsfield, NH 03263-0128 USA Alternate: Patricia A. Freeman David V. Haston E 3/4/2008 PrincipalFAE-AAC US Department of Agriculture Technology & Development Center 444 East Bonita Avenue San Dimas, CA 91773 USA Alternate: Anthony Petrilli Thomas M. Hosea RT 8/9/2012 PrincipalFAE-AAC US Department of the Navy 110 Vernon Avenue, Code E14 Panama City, FL 32407 USA Alternate: Brandi L. Chestang David G. Matthews SE 10/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC Fire & Industrial (P.P.E) Ltd. Rose Farm, Chapel Road Necton Norfolk PE37 8JA United Kingdom International Standards Organization Gary L. Neilson U 3/21/2006 PrincipalFAE-AAC 40 Martell Place Sparks, NV 89441 USA NFPA Fire Service Section Jack E. Reall L 8/9/2012 PrincipalFAE-AAC Columbus (OH) Division of Fire 379 West Broad Street Columbus, OH 43215 USA Columbus Firefighters Union William A. Van Lent M 3/2/2010 PrincipalFAE-AAC Veridian Ltd., Inc. 3710 West Milwaukee Street Spencer, IA 51301 USA Fire & Emergency Manufacturers & Services Association Alternate: Louis Carpentier Harry P. Winer SE 8/9/2012 PrincipalFAE-AAC HIP Consulting LLC PO Box 344 Ashland, MA 01721 USA Louis Carpentier M 3/2/2010 AlternateFAE-AAC Innotex Inc. 275, Gouin Street Richmond, QC J0B 2H0 Canada Fire & Emergency Manufacturers & Services Association Principal: William A. Van Lent Patricia A. Freeman M 1/1/1996 AlternateFAE-AAC Globe Manufacturing Company, LLC 37 Loudon Road Pittsfield, NH 03263 USA Principal: Robert A. Freese Karen E. Lehtonen M 7/26/2007 AlternateFAE-AAC Lion 7200 Poe Avenue, Suite 400 Dayton, OH 45414 USA Principal: Nicholas J. Curtis Robin B. Royster RT 10/28/2008 AlternateFAE-AAC UL LLC 12 Laboratory Drive PO Box 13995 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709-3995 USA Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Principal: Steven D. Corrado Stephen R. Sanders RT 4/5/2001 AlternateFAE-AAC Safety Equipment Institute (SEI) 1307 Dolley Madison Blvd., Suite 3A McLean, VA 22101 USA Principal: Patricia A. Gleason Donald B. Thompson SE 3/15/2007 AlternateFAE-AAC North Carolina State University Textile Protection & Comfort Center 2401 Research Drive, Box 8301, NCSU Raleigh, NC 27695-8301 USA Principal: Roger L. Barker Robert J. Athanas U 8/9/2012 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC FDNY/SAFE-IR, Incorporated 110 Jefferson Road Montgomery, NY 12549 USA TC on Electronic Safety Equipment Dean W. Cox U 1/14/2005 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC Fairfax County Fire & Rescue Department 11404 Chivalry Chase Lane Spotsylvania, VA 22551 USA TC on Special Operations PC&E Daniel N. Rossos U 3/15/2007 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC Portland Fire & Rescue 40640 SE George Road Estacada, OR 97023 USA TC on Respiratory Protection Equipment David G. Trebisacci 1/19/2011 Staff LiaisonFAE-AAC National Fire Protection Association 1 Batterymarch Park Quincy, MA 02169-7471 USA Eric J. Beck M 9/30/2004 SecretaryFAE-AAC Mine Safety Appliances Company 1000 Cranberry Woods Drive Cranberry Township, PA 16606 USA Compressed Gas Association Alternate: Michael T. Rupert Roger L. Barker SE 1/15/2004 PrincipalFAE-AAC North Carolina State University 2401 Research Drive, Box 8301 Raleigh, NC 27695-8301 USA Alternate: Donald B. Thompson Nicholas J. Curtis M 7/1/1995 PrincipalFAE-AAC Lion Apparel, Inc. 7200 Poe Avenue, Suite 400 Dayton, OH 45414 USA Alternate: Karen E. Lehtonen Cristine Z. Fargo M 10/27/2009 PrincipalFAE-AAC International Safety Equipment Association 1901 North Moore Street, Suite 808 Arliington, VA 22209 USA International Safety Equipment Association Patricia A. Gleason RT 7/1/1995 PrincipalFAE-AAC Safety Equipment Institute (SEI) 1307 Dolley Madison Blvd., Suite 3A McLean, VA 22101 USA Alternate: Stephen R. Sanders Kimberly M. Henry M 10/23/2003 PrincipalFAE-AAC PBI Performance Products, Inc. 9800D Southern Pine Boulevard Charlotte, NC 28273 USA Alternate: Richard H. Young James S. Johnson RT 10/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory 7867 Cypress Creek Court Pleasanton, CA 94588 USA Michael F. McKenna SE 10/18/2011 PrincipalFAE-AAC Michael McKenna & Associates, LLC 8511 St. Germaine Court Roseville, CA 95747 USA Anthony D. Putorti, Jr. RT 8/9/2011 PrincipalFAE-AAC National Institute of Standards & Technology 100 Bureau Drive, MS-8661 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8661 USA Jeffrey O. Stull M 1/1/1995 PrincipalFAE-AAC International Personnel Protection, Inc. PO Box 92493 Austin, TX 78709-2493 USA Alternate: Grace G. Stull Bruce H. Varner M 1/1/1994 PrincipalFAE-AAC 14175 W. Indian School, Suite B4-419 Goodyear, AZ 85395 USA International Fire Service Training Association Chris Bain C 11/2/2006 Voting AlternateFAE-AAC Oklahoma State Firefighters Association 2716 NE 50th Street Oklahoma City, OK 73111 USA Oklahoma State Firefighters Association Voting Alt. to OSFA Rep. Brandi L. Chestang RT 10/20/2010 AlternateFAE-AAC US Department of the Navy 101 Vernon Avenue, Bldg. 603, Code E-14 Panama City, FL 32405 USA Principal: Thomas M. Hosea Pamela A. Kavalesky RT 10/28/2008 AlternateFAE-AAC Intertek Testing Services 3933 US Route 11 Cortland, NY 13045-9717 USA Intertek Testing Services Principal: Jason L. Allen Anthony Petrilli E 8/9/2012 AlternateFAE-AAC US Department of Agriculture Technology & Development Center 5785 West Broadway Missoula, MT 59808 USA Principal: David V. Haston Michael T. Rupert M 10/27/2009 AlternateFAE-AAC Mine Safety Appliances Company 1100 Cranberry Woods Drive Cranberry Twp, PA 16066-5208 USA Compressed Gas Association Principal: Eric J. Beck Grace G. Stull M 10/28/2008 AlternateFAE-AAC International Personnel Protection, Inc. PO Box 92493 Austin, TX 78709-2493 USA Principal: Jeffrey O. Stull Richard H. Young M 10/27/2009 AlternateFAE-AAC DuPont Protection Technologies 5401 Jefferson Davis Highway Richmond, VA 23234 USA Principal: Kimberly M. Henry Christina M. Baxter E 10/20/2010 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC US Department of Defense 4800 Mark Center Arlington, VA 22350-2600 USA TC on Hazardous Materials PC&E Stephen J. King SE 7/28/2006 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC 37 Lucinda Drive Babylon, NY 11702-3703 USA TC on Structural and Proximity Fire Fighting PC&E Rick L. Swan L 11/14/2006 Nonvoting MemberFAE-AAC IAFF Local 2881/CDF Fire Fighters 350 Eric Lane Templeton, CA 93465 USA TC on Wildland Fire Fighting PC&E
Jay Patterson Jay Patterson Saturday, October 27, 2012 7:52:29 PM As I said I don't need NFPA 1851 to Tell me that equipment degrades exposure to the types of environments that firefighters expose their equipment to. I just had to replace my boots after five years because I developed a hole in an angle point where I walk. NFPA doesn't have to tell me what already makes sense. My original post to this article was about the insensitivity of the fire department charging a member for taking home old equipment that they used for 10 years, particularly after an event of historical significance and loss of life. Keep your helmet after 10 years if you feel that strongly about it, it's your head and your life to protect. I for one want to go home to my wife and children, i will follow the NFPA advice thank you.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Sunday, October 28, 2012 12:22:41 AM Sir, there are far too many like you who just don't get it and never will. By the looks of your shiny white helmet, you will never again need it anyway so the odds of you seeing your family are high. I wish you the nothing but the best, and I will happily keep my leather lid throughout my career and continue to enjoy the greetings at home from my kids. My helmet is not responsible for this, I am, my crew is, and my command staff is. It is through proper staffing and tactics that dictate this for the most part. Beyond that, we can do everything right and bad things happen. A ten year old helmet vs a new helmet will not be the difference. So save your drama for somebody else. Btw, boots, really. You just spoke to my point exactly. Replace stuff as needed based on condition and serviceability. Not some silly arbitrary date. As a person who purchases gear for my department I have to laugh. I have several pairs of odd sized boots and a few helmets that are 5 years old or more. Never been out of the box, never been out of a closet, but only a 5 year life because of the manufacture date. Get a clue. This is insane, this is wrong. If I issue a 5 year old pair of NEW boots to some new kid, by your standard (and the NFPA) he will be less safe in five years. Are you done yet, because I can do this all day long. BTW, if your gonna follow NFPA advice, why the silly face shield that does not meet any current standard. I got rid of my face shield years ago because I want to go home to my family in the morning and can't believe that they ever allowed such things. How many firefighters died because of those dangerous face shields, oh the calamity.
David Goodwin David Goodwin Sunday, November 04, 2012 6:54:59 PM I have a perfect understanding. I have had helmets that became a part of my soul. The fact remains: They belong to the department. I have been a firefighter for 30 years. Been there, done that dude. You need to take a leave of absence for a few months as you sound like you are wrapped a little too tightly. Ease up. Got a family? Spend more time with them. You spend to much time with your buddies.
Kevin Patrick Skinner Kevin Patrick Skinner Sunday, November 04, 2012 11:29:59 PM Hahahahaha, me wound tight, not hardly brother, time with my buddies, yup, my two young sons and fantastic wife every minute I get. Does not change my belief of what I said or my passion. The helmet is an expense like gloves that are disposable to the department. They cannot be reused any more than a fire engine tire. Bottom line, these helmets should be given to the members if they are deemed to be unserviceable, but not at some arbitrary date conjured up by some committee that consists of a majority of manufacturers. We need less bean counters like you kissing ass and more firefighters keeping tradition alive. Been there, seen dudes like you before. Is that all you got, I take a ton more abuse from my true brothers every day at shift change. My advice to you is stick with cooking.
Dave Lightner-Beitz Dave Lightner-Beitz Tuesday, March 12, 2013 2:33:36 PM Why is FDNY "picking up the tab"? The "tab" for what? These guys EARNED the marks & burns on their helmets, sme even died with those "earned marks & burns". FDNY Upper Mgt you are SIMPLY A JOKE! Let these guys KEEP THeiR HELMETS.
Charles McDevitt Charles McDevitt Friday, November 01, 2013 6:27:16 PM Well said Kevin. Im BS because I had to just retire the helmet Ive had for 15 years. It looks like a cowboy hat but is without question still as solid and safe as the day I got it. I hoped to retire with it on my head but instead I'll be walking out the door looking like a new guy LOL
Charles McDevitt Charles McDevitt Friday, November 01, 2013 7:30:32 PM I was just handed a brand new very shiny helmet and told I can no longer wear mine. Its good to see that others feel the same way I do about this. I would agree at the ten year mark bunker gear typically needs replacing but I think AS ADULTS we can recognize when our gear has to be replaced but its not always at the 10 year mark. I just took my 15 year old Morning Pride home to occupy space in my basement when I was issued new gear. I could without a doubt get more years out of it because back then it was built to last. They were like an old pair of jeans and replacing something so broken in killed me. New gear as much as I hate it doesnt really bother me. Taking away my helmet without question does. A firefighters gear may scream new guy but one look at the helmet on his head will tell a different story. A well worn leather helmet tells the story of where a firefighter has been and how much of a beating they took to get it that way. I worked in the city and remember looking at the salty guys helmets and hoping I'd have what it took to get mine to look like that. As a new firefighter I remember scanning the helmets guys had on and I was able to quickly gauge their experience. After 15 years my leather now looks like that and I wore it with pride. Paint is just about cooked off, the once obnoxiously bright reflective pieces are now blackened with soot and bubbled up and shriveled from the heat, the Bourkes are beat and the back brim has a nice bend which takes years to get. The shamrock on the helmet front and most of the stickers somehow made it through but they are almost unreadable. I asked what exactly was unsafe about it and could I possibly replace the guts with current parts. The answer was it has to be replaced. No one could tell me what exactly it was that deemed it unsafe or unfit for duty and I even offered to test it side by side with a new helmet to prove thats its as solid and just as safe as when it was new. I am on a mission to find out why all of a sudden its no longer safe. It recently held up just fine against a ceiling that fell. I learned one thing by researching this. THAT THEY HAVE NO GOOD REASON! I read multiple times that no definitive studies have been done. Nothing! No field or lab studies have been done. as well there was little if any specific evidence of helmets causing serious injury or death do to age. To some this may sound ridiculous and not worth the trouble but to me it means a lot. That helmet said everything about where Ive been and it was ready to bear more scars in the years to come.

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